24 April 2002
Source: Digital file purchased from Eastern District of Virginia official reporter Anneliese Thomson; (703) 299-8595 by way of www.exemplaris.com for $66.00. File digitally signed by Ms. Thomson.
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA
2 ALEXANDRIA DIVISION
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, . Criminal No. 01-455-A
4 vs. . Alexandria, Virginia
. April 22, 2002
5 ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI, . 10:00 a.m.
a/k/a Shaqil, a/k/a .
6 Abu Khalid al Sahrawi, .
7 Defendant. .
8 . . . . . . . . . . .
9 TRANSCRIPT OF MOTION HEARING
BEFORE THE HONORABLE LEONIE M. BRINKEMA
10 UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
12 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: ROBERT A. SPENCER, AUSA
KENNETH M. KARAS, AUSA
13 DAVID J. NOVAK, AUSA
United States Attorney’s Office
14 2100 Jamieson Avenue
Alexandria, VA 22314
(APPEARANCES CONT’D. ON FOLLOWING PAGE)
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER: ANNELIESE J. THOMSON, RDR, CRR
21 U.S. District Court, Fifth Floor
401 Courthouse Square
22 Alexandria, VA 22314
24 (Pages 1 – 65 )
25 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION OF STENOGRAPHIC NOTES
1 APPEARANCES: (Cont’d.)
2 FOR THE DEFENDANT: FRANK W. DUNHAM, JR.
Federal Public Defender
3 Office of the Federal Public
4 1650 King Street
Alexandria, VA 22314
EDWARD B. MAC MAHON, ESQ.
6 P.O. Box 903
107 East Washington Street
7 Middleburg, VA 20118
8 GERALD THOMAS ZERKIN
Assistant Federal Public Defender
9 Office of the Public Defender
One Capital Square
10 830 East Main Street, Suite 1100
Richmond, VA 23219
12 Assistant Federal Public Defender
Federal Defenders of Eastern
13 Washington and Idaho
10 N. Post, Suite 700
14 Spokane, WA 99201
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE CLERK: Criminal Case 2001-455-A, United States of
3 America v. Zacarias Moussaoui.
4 (Defendant in.)
5 THE CLERK: Will counsel please state their appearance
6 for the record.
7 MR. SPENCER: Good morning, Your Honor. Rob Spencer,
8 Ken Karas, and Dave Novak for the United States.
9 THE COURT: Good morning.
10 MR. DUNHAM: Good morning, Your Honor. Frank Dunham,
11 the Federal Public Defender, Jerry Zerkin and Ed MacMahon.
12 THE DEFENDANT: Ma’am.
13 MR. DUNHAM: And Judy Clarke for the defense.
14 THE DEFENDANT: No, I am sorry to note they are not
15 anymore my lawyer.
16 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, go up to the lectern,
18 THE DEFENDANT: Thank you.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, before you say anything, you
20 have a right to speak in court, and I want to advise you that
21 anything you say may be used against you by the government in the
22 prosecution of its case. Do you understand that, sir?
23 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, thank you.
24 THE COURT: All right.
1 THE COURT: Just one minute.
2 Just speak up loudly, Mr. Moussaoui. Go ahead.
3 THE DEFENDANT: Zacarias Moussaoui, (Arabic spoken.)
4 In the name of Allah, I, Zacarias Moussaoui, today the 22nd of
5 April, 2002, after being prevented for a long time to mount an
6 effective defense by overly restrictive and oppressive condition
7 of confinement, take the control of my defense by entering a pro
8 se defense set for presentation in order to mount a significant
9 defense of the defense of the life that Allah, the most
10 masterful, has granted to me.
11 I, slave of Allah, Zacarias Moussaoui, reject
12 completely the imposition of the U.S. so-called appointed lawyer
13 Dunham, Zerkin, MacMahon, and denounce their misconduct and their
14 intentional ineffective assistance.
15 I, slave of Allah, Zacarias Moussaoui, will engage
16 action against the U.S. Department of so-called Justice for very
17 serious misconduct reason that I will only explain in open court
19 I, slave of Allah, Zacarias Moussaoui, have the
20 intention in the shortest time practically possible to hire my
21 own chosen Muslim lawyer to assist me in matters of procedure and
22 understanding of the U.S. law. This Muslim lawyer chosen by me
23 will only assume — will not assume any representation in the
25 So physically I have to go through some events before I
1 can explain the reason I have chosen with — of making this
2 decision, and if you will allow me, I will explain to you in a
3 short time.
4 I’m sure that you will recall that I did try to contact
5 you on the 27th of March. I sent a message through the jail so
6 that I would place a phone call to your office or direct to you.
7 And at the end of the message that I have here, I made clear that
8 I didn’t want my lawyer to be informed, because a very serious
9 development have happened. So this is, in a sense, the letter
10 that I wanted — I tried to send to you.
11 THE COURT: All right. Now, Mr. Moussaoui, before you
12 publish that in open court, I want to make sure you understand
13 that once you’ve announced it, everybody’s going to know. And
14 there may be private things that went on between you and your
15 counsel that it would not be to your advantage to have the
16 government be aware of.
17 THE DEFENDANT: I’m fully aware that on my right that
18 some people were seeking my death. I’m fully aware. Thank you.
19 THE COURT: But do you nevertheless want to make this
20 public like this?
21 THE DEFENDANT: Absolutely.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 THE DEFENDANT: (Arabic spoken.) In the name of Allah,
24 oh, you who believe, take not as your Bitanah, advisor,
25 consultant, protector, helper, friend, those outside of your
1 religion, pagan, Jew, Christian, and hypocrites, since they will
2 not fail to do their best to corrupt you.
3 They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already
4 appeared from their mouth. But what their breast conceals is far
5 worse. Indeed, we have made plain to you the Ayat, the proof,
6 the evidence, the verse, if you understand.
7 Koran, Sura Al-i-Imran, Number 3, Ayat 118.
8 May Allah forgive me, I failed to fully understand.
9 Under the cover of assistance of the defense counsel,
10 the legal version of humanitarian assistance, the United States
11 are orchestrating my sending to the safe haven, Bosnia style.
12 What they have done is a sophisticated version of the
13 Troy horse or the kiss of death. Dead, injured, judge,
14 investigator, and the so-called defender are all federal
15 employee. I can’t wait for the jury.
16 They appointed, imposed the dream team. Greed, fame,
17 and vanity is their motivation. Their game is deception. Their
18 slogan is no scruple. The aim is SAMs appeal. Their plot: Oh,
19 you to whom the Koran has been sent down. Verily, you are a mad
20 man. Surah Hijr, Number 15, Ayat No. 6.
21 Of course, when they understood that I will not cave
22 in, they say we could go to the judge and say that you are not
23 fit or a bit paranoid. The government might agree, because in
24 the U.S., we do execute mentally retarded people, Mr. Moussaoui.
25 So what to do? Then fight. Then fight in the cause of
1 Allah. You are not tasked, held responsible except for yourself,
2 and incite the believers to fight along with you. It may be that
3 Allah will restrain the evil of the disbeliever. And Allah is
4 stronger in might and stronger in punishment.
5 Surah An-Nisaa, Ayat 84.
6 Indeed, I want to fight against the evil force of the
7 federal government. And Allah say, verily those who disbelieve
8 spend their wealth to hinder men from the path of Allah and so
9 will they continue to spend it, but in the end it will become an
10 anguish for them. Then they will be overcome. And those who
11 disbelieve will be gathered into hell. Surah Al Anfal, Number 8,
12 Ayat 36.
13 No doubt they are spending million of their haram, evil
14 money, to kill me. Therefore, oh, you who believe, shall I guide
15 you to trade that will save you from a painful torment; that you
16 will believe in Allah and his messenger, peace be upon him, and
17 that you will fight in the cause of Allah with your wealth and
18 your lives that will be better for you but know. Surah As-Saff
19 61, Ayat Number 1011.
20 Inshallah, Allah willing, there will be some Muslims
21 who want to fight and spend for the money for the real day of
22 judgment. From the beginning, the United States is preventing
23 any Muslim help to reach me, so let me clarify a few points.
24 (Arabic spoken.) First I will not entertain the
25 illusion that a U.S. District Judge Leonie Brinkema is an honest
1 broker. Reality tells me that this judge is here as a field
2 general, entrusted with the mission to get this matter over
3 quickly. Every general has a commander-in-chief, and I know how
4 much the U.S. commander-in-chief wants me to be over quickly.
5 No problem, because as Allah say, oh, you who believe,
6 when you meet those who disbelieve in the battlefield, never turn
7 your back to them.
8 THE COURT: Just a second.
9 Mr. Moussaoui, I’m going to let you finish in a second.
10 You’ve written out what you’re reading to the Court right now; is
11 that correct? You’re reading from text?
12 THE DEFENDANT: Partly.
13 THE COURT: All right. Because you are making
14 reference to, I assume, citations in Islamic writings —
15 THE DEFENDANT: It’s the Koran. I’m reading Koran.
16 THE COURT: You’re reading from the Koran.
17 THE DEFENDANT: Yeah.
18 THE COURT: All right. My court reporter, to make sure
19 we have an accurate transcript of these proceedings, is going to
20 request you give us a copy of what you’re reading from.
21 THE DEFENDANT: Absolutely.
22 THE COURT: All right, that’s fine. The marshals need
23 to make sure that’s done when this proceeding is over.
24 All right. Go ahead.
25 THE DEFENDANT: So yes, I will fight. I have no
1 problem, because as Allah say, oh, you who believe, when you meet
2 those who believe in the battlefield, never turn their back to
3 them. Surah Al-Anfal, Ayat 15.
4 My rule of engagement as Allah say, invite to the way
5 of your Lord with wisdom and fair preaching. And argue with them
6 in a way that is better. Surah An-Nahl Number 16, Ayat 125.
7 These good Muslim manners have, of course, nothing to
8 do with a docile attitude. As Allah say, oh, you who believe,
9 when you meet an enemy force, take a firm stand against them.
10 And remember the name of Allah much, so that you might be
11 successful. Surah Al-Anfal, Number 8, Ayat 45.
12 I will not make your day by giving any excuse to your
13 marshal to assault me in court, but be sure that I do not fear
14 you. As Allah say, it is only Satan that suggested to you fear
15 of his friends. So fear them not, but fear Allah if you are
16 true believer. Surah Al-i-Imran, Number 3, Ayat 175.
17 My experience tells me that the U.S. will not hesitate
18 to have a trial without me. After all, they only need me for the
19 gas chamber. But Allah is my witness. Nobody will ever
20 represent me, Inshallah, because suicide is forbidden in Islam.
21 As Allah say, verily, my prayer, my sacrifice, my
22 living, and my dying are for Allah, the Lord of the Alamin.
23 Surah Al-An’am, Number 6, Ayat 162.
24 To Allah we belong and to Allah we return. I turn to
25 Allah, the almighty, for all the Muslim and all the Mujahedin I
1 pray to Allah, the masterful, for all my brothers in jail like in
2 Algeria, everywhere in the land of Allah.
3 I pray to Allah for the return of Andalusia, Spain, to
4 the Muslim and the liberation of Ceuta and Medilla. I pray to
5 Allah for the return of India to the Muslims and to the
6 liberation of Kashimir.
7 I pray to Allah, Al Shadeed Al Y Rikab, Al Shadeed Al Y
8 Rikab, (phonetic), the severe in punishment for the destruction
9 of the Jewish people and states and for the liberation of
10 Palestine by the Muslim, for the Muslim.
11 I pray to Allah, the protector, for the destruction of
12 Russia and the return of the Islamic Emirates of
13 Chechnia. I pray to Allah, the powerful, for the return of the
14 Islamic Emirates of Afghanistan and the destruction of the United
15 States of America.
16 I pray to Allah, the forgiver, to forgive us, the
17 Muslim, for the occupation of the land of Haramain, the holy
19 I pray to Allah, the all powerful, for the return of
20 Mecca, Medina and Al-Kuds in the hand of the Muslim.
21 (Arabic Spoken.)
22 Oh, Allah, you are my supporter and you are my helper.
23 By you I move, and by you I attack, and by you I battle. Prophet
24 Muhammad, peace be upon him, Saheeh Al Tirmedee.
25 So, America, America, I’m ready to fight in your Don
1 King fight, even both hands tied behind the back in court. And
2 be sure Inshallah that all your ingenuity will not prevent me to
3 be in court in October. Inshallah, you will get the point.
4 The last word belongs to Allah as the all wise. And
5 remember, and remember when the disbeliever plotted against you
6 to imprison you or to kill you or to get you out from your home,
7 Mecca, they were plotting and Allah too was planning. And Allah
8 is the best of planner. Surah Al-Anfal, Number 8, Ayat 30.
9 Abukalid Sahrawi.
10 That was the essence of the letter that I wanted to
11 send you, to be read in open court. But the argument is coming.
12 It will be much shorter.
13 Can you stop speaking, please?
14 Yes, as you know, I have been arrested in Minnesota,
15 and I’ve been transferred by plane to New York and the jail in
16 Brooklyn. So when I arrived in Brooklyn, after a few day, I was
17 transferred to the Civic Center, the tribunal, to have a
19 So I was — I went to an office, and they have — in
20 this office, I met a, a clerk or an official. And he make me
21 fill some paper. So I filled the paper. He told me that it was,
22 my best recollection, is for the application for bail or
23 something of this. And I give all my detail, my financial
24 resources, my name, my address in France, different thing, okay?
25 Then after that, I went to the lobby, and there was a
1 Saudi doctor, who made the front page at the time. He was also
2 there. And there was two Indian, okay? They were being charged.
3 Because I was very close to them, maybe from here to here, and
4 the FBI was saying that you have been indicted for an act of
5 terrorist or waging war or something like that, and he say that
6 he would write books. I said, “You are not going to sell a lot
7 of books in America with your story.”
8 When they decided to send me back to — to send me to
9 the judge for the first time, we went on the lift, and I was
10 expecting to see the judge. At this point, they have an order to
11 send me back to Brooklyn, so I never saw the judge.
12 I went back to Brooklyn. After a few day, again they
13 say, “You are going again for pretrial.” Okay. So they send me
14 to the tribunal, and at this point, I was sent directly to the
15 tribunal, to the courtroom. And as I entered the courtroom,
16 there was already Mr. DuBoulay, lawyer Donald DuBoulay, who was
17 sitting in the rail, and he was waiting for me. So he said, “I
18 have been appointed. I’ve just received a phone call. There was
19 a sense of urgency.
20 So I sit down. I say, “I don’t want a lawyer. I want
21 to speak for myself.”
22 He say, “It’s very administrative. It’s very quick.
23 There’s nothing going to happen here.”
24 Okay. So he spoke with the judge, and I went back to
25 Brooklyn after. I’ll try to summarize as much as I can.
1 Then I was indicted — no, then after I was put on a
2 material witness, again the same thing. I went to the judge,
3 DuBoulay was there, and they were talking and everything. There
4 I argue my case. I say that I was illegally arrested and I have
5 a visa and so on. I tried to explain myself. The record shows
6 that in a better manner.
7 So after that, I was indicted, okay? At this point,
8 before I was indicted, all the time when I was speaking with
9 Donald DuBoulay, I say that I want a Muslim lawyer, and I said I
10 didn’t want to have a non-Muslim, because there would be no trust
11 at all.
12 He say, “You — in the first place, you don’t have
13 right of lawyer as of this moment,” because I was on INS. So he
14 say, “You don’t have a right to a lawyer.” He say that the
15 government have appointed a lawyer for you because maybe the
16 media, the media know that you don’t have a lawyer, they will
17 treat like you are some problem, and they say that they also want
18 to, maybe to propose things to you, but never — anyway, he say
19 that it’s just at the diligence of the government. I have no
20 rights when I was on INS.
21 So I said to DuBoulay that I want a Muslim lawyer.
22 Okay. He say, “At the moment, you don’t have the right.” He
23 say, “When you get on death penalty, you have right to two
25 So I say, “I want you to make known to the judge that I
1 want at least one Muslim lawyer,” and I said to him that there is
2 good cause for having one Muslim lawyer, because the case involve
3 the Muslim, and it involves somebody who is acquainted with the
4 Muslim environment, somebody who have knowledge of what is the
5 Muslim scene, the Mujahedin scene, what you call the terrorist
6 scene, somebody who is able quickly to understand what I am
7 talking about.
8 So he say that he will convey that message, but
9 unfortunately to me that there was nothing he could do. The
10 lawyer has been appointed. He told me there was lawyer Zerkin
11 and lawyer Dunham and lawyer MacMahon. Actually, he told me only
12 the name of Zerkin; that’s all.
13 So I said that I didn’t want them, because in first
14 place, again, I repeat myself, I didn’t want a non-Muslim.
15 Okay. When I — I was transferred — I was waiting for
16 them in New York to come to the — after I was indicted in New
17 York. (Arabic spoken.)
18 Wait a minute. When I was indicted to New York, I was
19 waiting for them to come to visit me, because I stayed for four
20 day. They didn’t show up. Okay. I find it strange. I thought
21 that maybe they would be eager to immediately make contact with
22 me, but I made a mistake, because I clearly indicated that I
23 didn’t want them. Later, later on, I regret this mistake.
24 So I arrive here, and I met them downstairs a few
25 minute before court, and I immediately told them that I wanted a
1 Muslim lawyer. They told me, “You can’t have one, because the
2 Court has appointed this lawyer to you, and, and there’s nothing
3 you can do. Because they are appointed, you have no choice on
4 the religion of your lawyer.”
5 They say, “But we can have a consultant, a Muslim
6 lawyer that we will hire,” and he will work with you.
7 Okay. I say okay. Because what I wanted is to make a
8 contact with a Muslim person and to tell him like I told to
9 DuBoulay the name of two or three person I knew in America who I
10 trust to a certain degree, and they will be able to contact a
11 Muslim lawyer, that I will be confident that he’s representing my
12 interest in the best manner. That’s the only thing I wanted to
13 do: to meet a Muslim person so he can contact a Muslim cleric
14 who is in Oklahoma who I know and he will find a lawyer.
15 So — this never happened anyway.
16 So they say they will do it. Okay. I was in a very
17 difficult position. I had all the United States people against
18 me, and I don’t need to give detail, but I don’t know if you can
19 even imagine. But anyway, I have to enter the situation, so I
20 decided to be patient, okay?
21 So after a few day making discussion with them and
22 everything, okay, it became apparent that it will be extremely
23 difficult to have even this basic understanding about how we are
24 going to work, okay?
25 So the first encounter was with Zerkin. Lawyer Zerkin,
1 after not even a week, we have a very direct discussion where I
2 said to him that if he doesn’t want to, to adapt, to follow the
3 guidance of my defense the way I want, according to my principle,
4 my belief, my understanding, and my religion, okay, he have to
5 make a professional judgment and withdraw from the case. He say
6 he can’t.
7 So he went on holiday to France, and I told him, “When
8 you go to, on holiday to France, you can think about the matter,
9 and when you come back, you give me a clear answer.” Okay.
10 Because the last thing I wanted is them doing what they want
11 according to their idea when they have no knowledge at all,
12 because they have no understanding of terrorism, Muslim,
13 Mujahedin. They have not any understanding. He has a few proof
14 here they stated themselves. Okay.
15 So me, I never confide, I never told them anything
16 about — of substance. My name, my address, where I come from,
17 where I study, that’s the kind of thing. And they state it in
18 the letter that I have here, okay? So there was no trust. It’s
19 here as well. There was no trust relation between me and them.
20 So at first, MacMahon have a very relaxed attitude. He
21 say, “This is your defense, Mr. Moussaoui. We are here to help
22 you, okay, and we will do as you wish. You want to do this
23 according to Islam principle,” so on and so forth, okay. Nice
24 talk. The same for Mr. Dunham.
25 But on January 30, the last day of the month, I
1 believe, after like something of great importance, we have an
2 argument, a divergence of opinion about a tactical point, okay,
3 and Frank send them, MacMahon and Zerkin, to visit me, okay, to
4 clarify a situation.
5 When they came, they didn’t discuss the point they were
6 supposed to discuss. They wanted to assert their right as a
7 lawyer to define the strategy and the tactic on the defense of my
8 life. So they said basically, “Mr. Moussaoui” — because before
9 in a sense, I always told whatever I disagree with. They say,
10 “From now on, finished. We are going to do as we wish.”
11 I say, “This is my life, and you have not any
12 understanding of the situation. You have no information. You
13 have nothing from the FBI. You have nothing, and you want to be
14 in charge.”
15 He says, “We are the lawyer, and we are by statute or
16 whatever, we are in charge.”
17 So I say, “So are you sure?” So I asked them three
18 time, because this is the manner of the Muslim, to assert
19 something, we used to — we ask three time the same question.
20 And if he respond three time, it means that it’s okay now.
21 So they say, “Yes. Indeed, we will just inform you,
22 inform you when we believe that it’s important.” Okay.
23 So I say, “If it’s like that, I dismiss you. You are
24 not my lawyer anymore.” And I have a letter who can show this.
25 They say, “We are not your lawyer. We are the lawyer
1 of the Court.”
2 Ah. They say yes. They say they are not my lawyer.
3 Okay. I have people who defend my life, and when I
4 tell them, “You are not my lawyer anymore,” they say, “Yes,
5 indeed, we are the lawyer of the Court.” That’s good.
6 So, so here a simple example. I will jump, because
7 it’s a very long story anyway. So I will jump to the moment I
8 send to you this letter requiring a phone call to talk to you,
9 and in here I say, as a decision relating to the death penalty
10 due to be made probably on Friday, could you arrange for me an
11 opportunity to call the U.S. District Judge, Leonie Brinkema, or
12 her office very quickly? I do not wish my lawyer to be informed
13 of this request. It’s here.
14 So I wanted to talk to you in order to dismiss the
15 lawyer and to go pro se, because I came to understand that after
16 heavy disagreement, they have decided to sideline me and to do
17 what they wanted because I’m in jail, I knew nothing anyway, and
18 that’s what transpired for that discussion, okay?
19 So at first, Frank Dunham didn’t have this attitude.
20 He had a pragmatic attitude. He was saying that we don’t have a
21 concrete reason to spat at the moment. Each time I disagreed, I
22 was able to show to him that my argument was well-founded, and
23 then he say, “Okay. Because it’s well-founded, it’s okay this
24 time.” He say, “At the moment, I don’t have really something
25 tell me, no, Mr. Moussaoui, I can’t accept your judgment. Either
1 you dismiss us or we do what we want.”
2 That was the deal with Frank Dunham.
3 So he have this attitude, and for me, I could go along
4 with this, because I was waiting for this Muslim lawyer that they
5 said that they were looking for, and as well have the need that
6 my case was advancing, because time was ticking. So I was trying
7 to make patience.
8 But one day, Frank Dunham brought me a list of a
9 defense investigation, and this item on the list I have refused
10 before. I say no, no Muslim, no Muslim, no Muslim, okay, because
11 I didn’t want them to interact with the Muslim, because with the
12 harassment campaign by the government, I didn’t want to put
13 anybody that I knew on the spotlight, because any association
14 with me will be terrible for them.
15 So I say no, no, no. So at first in January, beginning
16 of January, they accept it. Then after, they came with the same
17 list, and they say, “We have to do this, Mr. Moussaoui. This is
18 compulsory under the AG (phonetic), the law, and blah, blah,
20 So I say to Frank Dunham, “This is — you want the
21 confrontation, so I go pro se immediately.” He say yes. Not
22 him. He was referring to Zerkin, and he was talking to McGrew
23 because I say this list has been drafted by Zerkin and McGrew.
24 He said yes. McGrew is an investigator. He didn’t refer to
25 MacMahon. But, anyway, he say yes.
1 The idea behind was that I will go pro se immediately
2 and you will probably order a mental health examination. And
3 they had made the mistake to tell them that I will not entertain
4 any discussion with people who advance theories that man is
5 driven by an incestuous desire toward his mother, meaning that’s
6 the Freudian theory of psychiatry, so I have nothing to do with
7 this kind of people, to talk to them, so they knew that I was
8 somebody of very firm in his principle, I hope so, Inshallah, and
9 we knew that we have this disadvantage.
10 So I will come to you as pro se. You will say,
11 “Mr. Moussaoui, we have to examine you,” and I will refuse, and
12 they will be appointed standby lawyer.
13 And then somehow I will be removed completely through,
14 for whatever means America decide. And you will see that I have
15 a few letter of opinion on this point. But anyway, that’s not my
16 main point. If you believe that my main point that I didn’t get
17 a Muslim lawyer, that’s why I wanted the whole thing to be
18 stopped, that’s not the case. There’s a much stronger point, a
19 point that belong to you.
20 So I have a few letters that say that Mr. Moussaoui is
21 a very clever man, he’s very intelligent, he’s very educated.
22 That was the beginning of our relation. At the beginning,
23 Mr. Dunham and all of them would say: Mr. Moussaoui, you are
24 just fine. But then recently they started to say, basically to
25 smear me.
1 But, anyway — so I have a few letters of this.
2 So concerning the case, since the beginning, the case
3 have not advanced. Why? Two reasons. First, because I don’t
4 say anything to them. And I have a letter to attest to this,
5 where they complain that you don’t confide with us, and we are
6 not able to advance and so on.
7 Second, because the government didn’t give them
8 anything until two weeks ago. So because I anticipate that you
9 will be saying that Mr. Moussaoui, the case is four months old
10 and now you come, okay, I have a very direct letter that attests
11 that Mr. Dunham say: Indeed, anything of substance about the
12 case, of the case, of Moussaoui case, we seem to be learning from
13 the press. At this point, at this point, we are reduced to asking
14 that if a document is leaked, at least leak one to us.
15 He was talking to Paul McNulty.
16 Second, I have a stronger document than this. It’s an
17 ex parte application —
18 THE COURT: Well, now, wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Those
19 ex parte applications —
20 THE DEFENDANT: I’m not going to read the name or
21 anything. I’m just going to read — I’m aware — I’ve become
22 aware. I’m just reading the phrase that says that they don’t
23 know nothing, there’s no name, there’s nothing, absolutely no
24 information that is under seal. I’m aware.
25 “As of today, we have not received a single document
1 that relates in any way to any of the person alleged to be
2 hijacker on September 11, 2001. Not a single plane ticket,
3 flight manifest, car rental receipt, hotel, or other travel
4 document. We have no information regarding any of the events
5 relating to any of the hijacked plane. We have no intelligence
6 file relating, relating in any way to a single person alleged in
7 any way to be involved in this conspiracy.”
8 Such information has been requested but has not yet
9 been produced. Okay.
10 “So in short” — it’s written — “in short, we have
11 almost no discovery at this time but anticipate that an immense
12 volume of material is on the verge of production in this case,
13 leaving us with relatively limited period of time to analyze and
14 prepare that information of Mr. Moussaoui defense.”
15 This letter is two weeks old. So this letter, this ex
16 parte is two weeks old.
17 I have the handwritten of Dunham, of Dunham, and it is
18 dated 4/11. So if somebody wanted to claim that the case, the
19 reality of the case is four months old, I will object strongly,
20 because this was supposed to be filed to you, and I show — I’m
21 not showing — it’s United States of America, Zacarias Moussaoui,
22 under seal. I hide the name.
23 So that shows that the case is two weeks old.
24 But we didn’t get the point yet. Let’s make the other
25 point as well, because I never know if I will be in court again,
1 now, so I will be quite clear.
2 (Arabic spoken.)
3 So this is a compound by your failure to trust —
4 sorry. Here I’m dealing with the fact that I never confide with
5 them. I never give them any information. I was in a complete
6 state of mistrust with them since the beginning. And this letter
7 is dated February 25, okay, by the Public Defender, Federal
8 Defender Office, okay, and written by Frank Dunham, okay.
9 So I received the fact that we don’t have — anyway,
10 this is a compound by your failure to trust us up to this point
11 with information critical to your defense, meaning that I didn’t
12 give them any information.
13 Here we go. “The government discovery in this case
14 will be so massive that no one person will be able to read and
15 digest it at all before trial.”
16 Already he say that he’s not capable of reading and
17 digesting the thing. That’s why they decided to change the
18 approach in this case, to create a theory. They have decided to
19 create a theory to put it in the air. They say, “We are going to
20 create a theory, we will make it hang in the air, and the jury
21 will be confused. That’s how you are going to save your life,
22 Mr. Moussaoui.”
23 Thank you very much.
24 “You will have a trial team searching through the
25 literal haystack provided by the government, looking for the
1 proverbial needle without knowing that it is, indeed, a needle
2 being looked for. Since you are not able to search through the
3 material yourself, given your condition of confinement, the
4 defense must do the search for you.
5 “I know, I know you know this. It is my strong hope
6 that at some point you will see the wisdom in confiding the
7 information which is vital to your defense to counsel.”
8 So he attests that I never speak to them about
9 anything. I never did this anyway.
10 So let’s go to the final point. So we have to go back
11 to New York, because all of this starts in New York, the all
12 great American game.
13 Mr. Moussaoui is not an indigent. Mr. Moussaoui, he
14 have more than $30,000 in the United States. He has at least
15 $25,000 in a bank account in Pan Am escrow, holding some money,
16 at least $6,000, this account today worth more than $1,000.
17 So Mr. Moussaoui, when he went to pretrial the first
18 time and he filled out this paper, if they went to process it,
19 they realized that they can’t appoint a lawyer, because I have
20 the resources to hire my first lawyer.
21 So they say, Mr. Moussaoui, let’s go back to jail. And
22 then we make Moussaoui direct to court, and, Mr. Moussaoui, we
23 understand this, because thanks to Mr. Reid, because they gave me
24 an article — and I don’t read much of newspaper, because they
25 are all lie, so I don’t like to read much, but as he was a
1 Muslim, I see Brother Reid, he came to in front of a judge and
2 the judge said to him: “Do you understand the charge?”
3 And he say “Yeah.”
4 Reid — Reid also asked for a court-appointed attorney.
5 So he asked for it. And he was asked — it was brought
6 in front of a judge. And a judge make him understand that this
7 charge, and do you want a lawyer, because it’s a right.
8 I never had the opportunity of this, because they sent
9 me back the second time. They brought me direct to court and
10 DuBoulay was standing and he say “I’m his lawyer.” The judge
11 never asked me if I want, because they knew from the government,
12 from the mentality, if you want, I have that we never have one
13 like that. So they knew that I will ask for a Muslim lawyer, and
14 they will be — I would like them to say that they didn’t have
15 file on me about the kind of ideology I have and did not
16 anticipate that I would refuse a lawyer and especially a Jewish
17 lawyer. Okay?
18 So they knew this. So they manipulated the whole thing
19 in order to bring me direct to trial. But it didn’t stop here,
20 because this right is, I believe, in your 14th Amendment.
21 Anyway, we will go there later on.
22 So the second time when I come to Virginia, the same
23 thing happened. I came to one judge first. What was the name of
24 the first judge? I don’t even remember. He never told me his
1 So, anyway, I was brought here. And they rise and they
2 say: “We are the lawyer for Mr. Moussaoui,” but, the judge — I
3 was indicted. It was a new indictment in Virginia. I should be
4 asked: “Do you want a lawyer, Mr. Moussaoui? Because,
5 Mr. Moussaoui, you have $30,000.”
6 But no, because the government doesn’t want me to have
7 my own lawyer. They want me to have their civil servant
8 appointed lawyer, officer of the court, like they told me.
9 So I knew that under your, your law, the United States
10 law, the Supreme Court say under the due process clause of the
11 14th Amendment, criminal prosecution must comport with prevailing
12 notion of fundamental fairness. We have long anticipated this
13 standard of fairness to require that a criminal defendant be
14 afforded a meaningful opportunity to present a complete defense.
15 So after a court, Washington v. Texas, the right to
16 present a defense is a fundamental element of due process of law.
17 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Moussaoui, I’m giving you a
18 chance to speak, but I’m familiar with the law.
19 THE DEFENDANT: Yeah, but —
20 THE COURT: Let me ask you what else — you’re asking
21 the Court this morning to let you fire these attorneys and
22 proceed pro se —
23 THE DEFENDANT: No.
24 THE COURT: — or to hire for yourself a Muslim
1 THE DEFENDANT: No.
2 THE COURT: Well, then tell me exactly what you’re
3 asking for.
4 THE DEFENDANT: I’m asking you three things at least.
5 First of all, unless it will be proven to my satisfaction that I
6 will not be impeded in the future, I will make an appeal for the
7 old process, because since in the beginning, this process is
8 illegal under your law. I’ve never been asked it, this right
9 that I have under your law to decide if I wanted to be
10 represented by a lawyer, okay? That’s the first element.
11 But I’m not necessary in a delaying tactic, wanting to
12 start everything from scratch. If it will be proven to me that
13 you will supply to me all the elements to prepare my own defense,
14 I will reconsider your offer, because the second point I will say
15 is they knew under the law they are supposed to give me my right.
16 They are supposed to inform me that the process, what happened to
17 me was not according to your law. They are in charge of this.
18 But because of the vested interest they have in
19 representing me, they have no — they didn’t want to do this.
20 Because the first thing when I come, they will say,
21 Mr. Moussaoui, the judge didn’t do his job. The judge should
22 have asked you first if anywhere you indicated that, yes, you
23 want appointed lawyer. Then we enter the scene. And they knew
24 this from the beginning. The same thing for Mr. DuBoulay.
25 Because, of course, fame and money and so on and so forth.
1 But that’s not only this is. This endangered my life,
2 because, because of this, they know that I don’t want them, that
3 I want a Muslim lawyer, they have put aside half of the case.
4 Half of — the Muslim case, they don’t want to deal with this.
5 If they can’t deal, because as Mr. DuBoulay — sorry, Mr. Dunham.
6 It’s a mistake, it’s not Mr. DuBoulay, it’s Mr. Dunham — say in
7 the newspaper apparently, apparently that he cannot send his
8 investigator, female investigator to Muslim country. That’s only
9 an example.
10 And I know that people who could have provided vital
11 evidence for me will never, never speak to a non-Muslim because
12 they have the same kind of understanding in life than me. And it
13 was made clear to them that if they accepted the logic that the
14 case has two parts at least, one in America and one in the Muslim
15 environment. If they cannot navigate in the Muslim environment,
16 they have nobody of any Islamic understanding at this stage in
17 that team, four months, and they were contacted by the
18 association, a Muslim association, who proposed their service to
19 them. And they forget to phone back, he told me, Dunham. Then
20 after they said, “No, no they were too peace and love, they are
21 not your kind of Muslim.”
22 But, anyway, that’s only a side point. But to the
23 first point for me and to others also, in case that you will
24 dismiss the whole thing, I will fight on these three points: The
25 fact that I was never asked — able to get my rights, to choose
1 my own lawyer, because I had the financial means of this, okay,
2 and I’m innocent until proven guilty, okay, so even if the
3 government have blocked my money, I believe that they have no
4 right and this should be fought in court.
5 They say no. They say this is a civil matter. We
6 can’t. And then after they say it, well, we have to wait until
7 the end of the trial. That was very — we have a discussion
8 recently, because they open a bank account for me. They opened a
9 bank account for me, because I have $3,000 where I used to hold
10 in cash when I was arrested. And the government took it and give
11 them a check, okay? It was from the treasurer. So they wanted
12 me to buy my own law books. I have a letter here that says that
13 I requested a law book to defense pro se, and the dictionary,
14 Black dictionary, legal dictionary to understand more of the
15 judicial system. They said: “You have to buy it by your own
16 money. And, anyway, we are not sure that the sum will allow
17 you — or allow them to give it to me.”
18 So that’s the point. Okay.
19 They have denied any effective assistance of lawyer.
20 They have misconducted themselves, because their interests, their
21 private interests in front of my interest, and the first one I
22 say, my right to choose.
23 THE COURT: All right. Let me first advise you that
24 you do have an absolute right under our law to be your own
25 attorney, to proceed pro se. You already know that.
1 You do not have a right to pick and choose the lawyer
2 you want appointed for you. Therefore, that request cannot and
3 will not be granted.
4 THE DEFENDANT: I didn’t make that request.
5 THE COURT: You have the right to hire an attorney at
6 your own expense of your own choice. However, in this type of
7 case where there are national security and classified documents,
8 you don’t have totally unrestricted choice even if you have the
9 money available to hire an attorney, because the attorneys, as
10 you know, because you’ve seen a copy of it, have to be able to be
11 cleared to receive some of the information in this case, not all
12 of it, but some of it.
13 Now with those parameters, based upon what you have
14 said — and I’m going to give your attorneys a second if they
15 want to respond to it — you will be granted the request — wait
16 a minute — you will be granted the request to proceed without
17 these attorneys, but let me talk to them first. You’ll get a
18 chance again.
19 THE DEFENDANT: No, just a very final point here. I do
20 not wish at all and I do not want you to refer to them as my
21 attorney. They are not my attorney.
22 THE COURT: I understand.
23 THE DEFENDANT: And this point is clear. And I do not
24 wish them to make any matter, any point of substance of the case.
25 If they want to refute whatever they want, that’s fine. But they
1 should not mention any strategy, the same way —
2 THE COURT: These men will not. They’re experienced
4 THE DEFENDANT: Yeah, yeah, I believe that they’re
5 experienced. They’re experienced in deception.
6 THE COURT: Have a seat.
7 All right, Mr. Dunham.
8 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, I’m going.
9 MR. DUNHAM: Well, Your Honor, if we were to address
10 this point by point, I think our view of things might be a little
11 different, but we do understand the lack of trust that the
12 individual has had in us from the beginning. We’ve tried hard to
13 earn it.
14 I think there are some things that should be addressed
15 with the Court, but I’m reluctant to do it in the presence of the
16 government, but the Court should know about the representational
18 THE COURT: Let me start, first of all, by going to the
19 motion that’s before us right now about the SAM. We’ll get back
20 to this other issue in a second, because some of this may make
21 things a little bit easier.
22 You have filed and the actual motion that’s on the
23 docket this morning is the defendant’s motion for relief from
24 conditions of confinement. And you had a series of issues that
25 you had complained about in that motion.
1 My understanding, because, as you know, we sent some of
2 our staff with the marshal to the jail on Friday to check things
3 out so that we could see what was going on there, and it’s our
4 understanding that many of the issues complained about have been
5 or are about to be resolved.
6 MR. DUNHAM: My understanding is that there is an
7 agreement with the government — and Mr. Spencer can confirm
8 this — that we have worked it out that Mr. Moussaoui will be
9 allowed to have a computer, a desk-top model, stand-alone, which
10 will be provided by the defense; that he can have a keyboard and
11 a mouse and a monitor to go with that computer.
12 Now, there will be a separate secure room at the jail.
13 They’re installing power in the room at the present time, so it’s
14 not available as we speak, but it will be available in short
15 order. Sheriff Dunning and the U.S. Marshal Clark were over
16 there Friday working on this.
17 The government has agreed to provide CD-ROMs with the
18 discovery material as it’s made available. The defense will
19 provide copies of what we’ve already been given, and any new
20 production would be — the CD-ROM would be given directly by the
21 government to Mr. Moussaoui.
22 Now I do want to comment here briefly with an editorial
23 comment that the pleading that Mr. Moussaoui read from was not
24 filed with the Court, because it was about to be and we got a
25 boatload of discovery just as we were about to turn it in, so it
1 became moot. There was no point in making that representation at
2 that point in time.
3 Up to about April 11, what he read was correct, but we
4 got a load of discovery from the government, and it’s coming
5 late, as we understand it, because they’re taking the time to put
6 it on CD-ROM, which is the only way you can manage this stuff.
7 And so I wouldn’t want the Court to think that we are of the —
8 you know, we are a little bit captive to them, but we agreed to
9 go this CD-ROM route, and discovery was slower than we wanted,
10 and we were about to bring it to the Court’s attention when
11 suddenly we got some. And it wasn’t a fair representation at the
13 Now I will allude to the telephone. We were concerned
14 about the privileged nature of attorney-client privileged calls,
15 because Mr. Moussaoui was — his end of the call was constantly
16 being monitored by sheriff’s deputies. They worked that out so
17 that a phone could be — a headset at least could be run into his
18 cell and he’d be able to talk from inside his cell securely at
19 his end with us.
20 And while the telephone calls were going to be limited
21 to ten minutes each initially, because it was tying up a line
22 that they use in the ordinary course of business, the idea was in
23 about a month they’d have a second line there, and we would be
24 able to talk almost an unlimited basis by phone.
25 Third, our motion addressed the problem that his
1 papers, papers we gave him and papers he returned to us, were
2 being searched by sheriff’s deputies, and we really couldn’t tell
3 whether they were reading them or not, but the report from
4 Mr. Moussaoui was they were certainly looking at them long enough
5 to have read them.
6 That was solved by an agreement that we can pass floppy
7 disks back and forth. He’s got a computer with a keyboard. We
8 can give him a disk; he can give us disks. The sheriffs can
9 inspect the disks, but they don’t need to stick them in a
11 So all of the issues in the case were resolved except
12 one, which was our efforts to try to arrange for a consultation
13 for Mr. Moussaoui with an individual by the name of John Doe,
14 whose name Mr. Moussaoui gave to us, and who we have interviewed
15 and who we have felt might have helped resolve some of the
16 problems that are apparent in what Mr. Moussaoui has presented to
17 the Court this morning.
18 On Friday afternoon, in an attempt to work this out
19 with Mr. Spencer, I offered to allow Christine Gunning, the court
20 security officer, to sit in on those conversations. And I had
21 previously discussed this with Mr. Moussaoui, and he didn’t have
22 any objection to it. She would monitor the call. She would not
23 know who John Doe was, but if she heard anything untoward being
24 mentioned during the call that didn’t sound like religious
25 consultation and the seeking of advice, she would be in a
1 position to pull the plug on the call.
2 I was advised that she didn’t have enough training in
3 al Qaeda matters to be a good smoke detector, so to speak, and so
4 I asked Mr. Spencer: “Well, who would you suggest?” And he told
5 me that everybody that they had that could possibly perform this
6 function is sitting on the wrong side of the firewall at the
7 present time, and there’s nobody on the other side of the
8 firewall apparently that could fulfill this role.
9 But obviously it’s the kind of help I think we could
10 have used earlier, and we might not be in the situation that
11 we’re in at the present time.
12 Now I just want to point out that we have —
13 Mr. Moussaoui has been aware of his Faretta rights since the
14 beginning of the representation and that his assertion of them
15 today comes somewhat of a surprise, but not as a total surprise,
16 to defense counsel.
17 We believe that the case is sufficiently complicated
18 such that even if he could get the $35,000 that he talks about in
19 his bank account which has been frozen by the President of the
20 United States, even if he could get that money, it’s nowhere near
21 what this defense effort is going to cost.
22 I mean, I have been struggling for weeks with the
23 budget for this defense, and without going into the numbers, you
24 know, there are not many people in America that could afford the
25 defense that he’s going to need in order to have an effective
1 defense in this case.
2 There are other things that I would want to talk about,
3 but I’m not going to rebut Mr. Moussaoui here openly in court in
4 front of the government point by point, except to say that we
5 have tried as hard as we can to work with him in a reasonable
6 manner, and apparently that is not going to work.
7 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dunham, as you know, there
8 was some time ago a motion filed by the United States, I think
9 Mr. Zerkin actually responded to it, asking whether the defense
10 was going to defend on any kind of a mental health issue. And,
11 of course, they wanted notification about that.
12 In your dealing with the defendant, as an experienced
13 attorney, is there any reason in your opinion or in the opinion
14 of your co-counsel to believe that the defendant is in any
15 respect suffering from any mental illness that would make this
16 decision on his part to give up his current counsel, in any way
17 cloud the voluntariness or knowing aspect of such a decision?
18 MR. DUNHAM: I am — this defendant has been in
19 solitary confinement for a substantial period of time, and during
20 the course of that — with lights on 24 hours a day —
21 THE COURT: That, by the way, as you know, is being
22 also somewhat ameliorated.
23 MR. DUNHAM: That’s being ameliorated, but to say that
24 that has had no effect on him would not be a correct statement.
25 I mean, I can’t tell what the effect is, but I have
1 seen the difference in the gentleman during the course of the
2 representation, so I would be — I’m not a psychiatrist or a
3 psychologist, you know, I’m not in a position to render an
4 opinion, but if you were to ask me could I say with 100 percent
5 certainty that he’s absolutely clear and mentally sound, I
6 couldn’t say that. I have some concerns in that regard.
7 We — our position was going to be we weren’t going to
8 raise it in connection with the penalty phase if we ever got
9 there in this case, because that is a delicate decision that has
10 to be made because of the things it opens up the door for the
11 government to say and do in that phase of the case.
12 You might have a person with mental health problems in
13 a death penalty case where you would never raise those mental
14 health problems in a punishment part of the case, because of what
15 it opens the door for the government to do.
16 So the issue of this gentleman’s competency, in my
17 view, had not reached the point where we were going to ask the
18 Court to have an examination for him, for example, for purposes
19 of participating in his own defense, understanding the charges
20 against him, or as a defense to the charges themselves, but I do
21 believe that under Faretta, a competency inquiry is warranted
22 before the motion to proceed pro se should be granted.
23 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Spencer, does the United
24 States want to be heard on this issue? And the issue is twofold.
25 One, of course, is the first one that is right before us right
1 now is the issue about whether a competency evaluation ought to
2 be done at this point to ensure that this waiver is a knowing and
3 voluntary waiver.
4 And, secondly, I’d also like you to address the issue
5 about the John Doe situation.
6 MR. SPENCER: Excuse me, Your Honor. Can Mr. Karas
7 address the John Doe situation?
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 MR. SPENCER: And on the Faretta, on the question of
10 competency, Your Honor, we’ve had no contact with the defendant,
11 obviously. And we have no way of making the same judgment. Out
12 of an abundance of caution, I see no objection to having a
13 competency evaluation done in Alexandria on a quick time
14 schedule. And it may give the Court some peace of mind in
15 allowing him to go forward pro se.
16 THE COURT: All right. Do you want to address the John
17 Doe situation?
18 MR. KARAS: As Your Honor knows from the papers that we
19 submitted, we have deep concerns about permitting Mr. Moussaoui
20 to speak to somebody who is refusing to be vetted as would
21 normally be required by the restrictions.
22 The restrictions are based on really years of
23 investigative experience with respect to al Queda and what it is
24 that it trains its members and associates to do, even when
25 they’re in prison. And one of the things that it constantly
1 seeks to do as an organization is to monitor the court
2 proceedings against those who have been charged with being
3 members or subjects of al Queda to learn what it is the
4 government knows or more importantly doesn’t know about what al
5 Queda is doing. That includes monitoring the press clippings on
6 any court proceedings as well as court documents.
7 And one of the primary purposes behind the special
8 administrative measures, Your Honor, is to make sure that
9 Mr. Moussaoui or any al Queda member or associate doesn’t have
10 the opportunity to pass on messages, subtly coded messages to
11 individuals who could pass on other messages to his cohorts on
12 the outside.
13 The procedure that is in place is not to deny
14 Mr. Moussaoui the access to individuals who might assist in his
15 defense but to put into place some sort of mechanism that allows
16 us to be sure that what the person is doing is actually helping
17 Mr. Moussaoui and not hurting the government and the national
18 security in the ongoing war against al Queda.
19 And the proposal on the table really undermines the
20 very purpose of the SAM. It just eliminates the purpose of the
21 SAM, because what it does is under the theory that’s been
22 presented by the defense, anybody including, as we mentioned, Bin
23 Laden or somebody who might be sympathetic to al Queda, unknowing
24 to defense counsel, would have an opportunity to speak to Mr.
25 Moussaoui, and even in a situation where Ms. Gunning might be
1 listening in on a telephone conversation, in addition to the
2 concerns that Mr. Dunham raised, the other concern that we have
3 is that it would require 100 percent vigilance. And human error
4 being what it is, Your Honor, even one message could be something
5 that could be fatal.
6 So all that we ask is that John Doe go through the same
7 vetting procedure that other individuals who would see Mr.
8 Moussaoui would go through, and then we can determine whether or
9 not any additional restrictions are in place. At this point
10 we’re not saying he can’t go in. He’s saying he doesn’t want to
11 be vetted.
12 And Mr. Moussaoui doesn’t have a right to an individual
13 of his choosing to speak to about his case. There’s no right
14 whatsoever in the Constitution that gives him that opportunity.
15 And we think that given the grave security concerns, that there
16 really is an alternative that satisfies these concerns and at the
17 same time we think that protecting these concerns doesn’t
18 compromise any recognized constitutional right.
19 THE COURT: My understanding is that once the
20 vetting — if the vetting were done and the person were cleared,
21 if this person is coming in as a cleric, for example, then there
22 would not be any intrusion in the conversation between them.
23 MR. KARAS: That’s correct, Your Honor. In fact, my
24 understanding is that the prison officials have cleared an imam
25 to visit with Mr. Moussaoui, and that is something that would
1 take place without any government supervision or monitoring.
2 I would say that there was an issue with the individual
3 that required us to perhaps suggest additional restrictions be
4 put in place. We could address those when it’s ripe. But right
5 now we don’t know anything about the individual to even make that
7 THE COURT: Mr. Spencer.
8 MR. SPENCER: May I address several practical
9 considerations within the competency evaluation, if the Court’s
10 going to go down that road?
11 THE COURT: Yes. Let me finish with this motion first
12 of all. The defendant’s motion for relief —
13 MR. DUNHAM: Your Honor, I’m sorry.
14 THE COURT: Yes.
15 MR. DUNHAM: Can I just respond to one thing he said?
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 MR. DUNHAM: The problem is that Islamic scholars are
18 not fungible, just like Protestant clerics are not fungible. You
19 have different sects, different beliefs, different organizations
20 under the heading Protestant. Even under the heading Catholic or
21 Jewish, you have different sects or segments.
22 This gentleman we’ve identified is somebody that we
23 believe Mr. Moussaoui would listen to and is somebody who I
24 believe would give him the advice that I think he needs, because
25 I’ve met with the gentleman.
1 So just to say that the jail’s got a cleric doesn’t
2 solve the particular problem here. I understand the government’s
3 security needs, and I understand the dilemma that it puts
4 everybody in, but I don’t think that if you have Christine
5 Gunning listening to the call, that there are going to be a lot
6 of coded messages.
7 THE COURT: Well, based on the track record in this
8 case and the representations that the United States has made and
9 the allegations and that there’s probable cause at this point to
10 believe that the allegations are true, that’s all there is is
11 probable cause, but that means that it’s not an irrational
12 inference to believe that there may be truth to these comments,
13 makes it too dangerous to allow unfettered access.
14 Now again, this is one of those situations where the
15 whole problem or most of the problem can go away if John Doe
16 changes his or her mind. And if the advice of that person is so
17 critical to the well-being of Mr. Moussaoui and Mr. Moussaoui’s
18 case, you need to urge that person to change his opinion,
19 apparently — change his opinion and to go through the vetting
21 If that person is unwilling to do so, there’s nothing
22 this Court is going to do to change the situation.
23 All right, Mr. Moussaoui, you can go back up there for
24 a second. Now we’re simply addressing the John Doe issue right
1 THE DEFENDANT: Yes. I’m addressing the John Doe issue
2 because this motion doesn’t represent what was my concern in my
3 situation. Because I told them that, first of all, I didn’t want
4 to cry to the United States. I didn’t want to talk about light
5 and everything and door banging and everything, because this is a
6 normal condition of a prisoner. And I said to them that I know
7 brother were in far worse situations than me, so not at all.
8 And I can entertain this by this document I drafted to
9 them, I proposed to them as a base for discussion. And it is
10 here. There is nothing else, condition, light on, and
12 By the way, the only thing that was really annoying me
13 was the lack — because I have no window. It’s not even
14 mentioned in the document, okay? So that’s the kind of care.
15 In fact, this motion had been drafted to bring this
16 point that the situation is very difficult for Mr. Moussaoui and
17 he’s under an oppressive condition, because they sense this, they
18 could see me wanting to go pro se because I was becoming more
19 pressing on the requiring books, different elements of the trial
20 transcript, and I was asking more and more elements. And you
21 could very much see that this person was going to go pro se soon,
23 So that’s the reason — — and me, why I did this,
24 because that was the only way I could have access to the Court
25 without them anticipate this well in advance to have a very
1 well-organized campaign, I would say, to smear me, to come to you
2 and say, “we are concerned about Mr. Moussaoui,” and this and
4 If I give them a head start, they will have been able
5 to engineer this in a much better manner. So I accepted this
6 motion not for what is inside the motion, only to talk about
7 indeed the condition of confinement, would prevent me to go pro
8 se in a fair and free manner.
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 THE DEFENDANT: And the second point that he have
11 addressed here, he say that he have some concern for me and
12 especially because of the new condition.
13 Here you have a letter that is dated on the 29 March
14 where he say to the chief intelligence and investigative
15 operation of the Criminal Division, he say, Mr. Moussaoui
16 given — at no time have Mr. Moussaoui given any indication that
17 he would assault counsel, and he has conducted himself at all
18 times in a nonthreatening, peaceful manner, okay? Not in an
19 erratic manner, nothing mentioned. That’s one thing.
20 Concerning mental health, we had a meeting last week,
21 and we discussed this. We discussed the strategy. They said
22 that the benefit of using mental health — very quickly. And
23 then I told them basically the same thing, that I wasn’t going to
24 have mental test. And they said that at the moment we didn’t see
25 any reason for me to have one. And I have it in a hand-draft
1 letter by — written by lawyer Zerkin, who say Zacarias
2 Moussaoui, by counsel, state that he has no intention to
3 introduce any mental health testimony at the guilt or penalty
4 phase of the trial.
5 So one week ago, they didn’t insist, say no,
6 Mr. Moussaoui, this is so crucial for us, okay? They came to
7 give me one story.
8 But thank you to the government, through its memoranda
9 for the mental health, its motion, I took — I got the
10 information that, in fact, indeed they wanted to introduce some
12 So this is a very unfair way to proceed, because they
13 are claiming something one day and are doing something another
15 So the last thing I want to address, that this motion,
16 I rejected the motion, okay, what is inside the memorandum. I
17 accept the motion but not the memorandum. The memorandum should
18 be taken from what I will draft, I would send to the Court in due
19 time, because I will address this issue. And I will go further
20 than the condition of the SAM in my, in my draft, because I want
21 just to be able to get the information.
22 I do not want to meet inmates. I do not want to have
23 contact with people outside. I want to study my case. I want to
24 defend my life. And I didn’t ask them to say about things they
25 talk about in the case, in this motion, okay?
1 So the government should relax. And I have no
2 intention to speak with John Doe or John X, okay? John Doe was a
3 door for me to access you. When they say that we will do this, I
4 said okay, because I wanted to give a letter, this letter, send
5 it to you, and then the thing will start, okay?
6 But you have the intention to sideline me because you
7 already ask if he is still talking as my lawyer. That will be
8 fine, because you are in charge, but the record will show that I
9 have nothing to do with them.
10 And second thing, they have no knowledge of the case on
11 my side, okay, a nonvital piece, as they recognize in the letter
12 that I have here. Okay? I know what are my activity inside
13 United States, abroad, in Britain, in everywhere I was. They
14 have no knowledge. They want what they want. It’s a short case,
15 where they will be in court, then Mr. Zerkin will just fight for
16 death or no death. Because the guilt already is conceded, if I
17 read the different newspaper — piece of newspaper.
18 So I do not want them, because I do not believe they
19 have my best interests. They have shown direct hostility.
20 Mr. Dunham have used a rude word against me on three occasions
21 already, okay?
22 So I have no intention to have these people in any
23 manner to defend me.
24 THE COURT: All right. All right, Mr. Moussaoui, stay
25 there for a second. Let me explain to you that as I said
1 earlier, you have a right if I’m satisfied that you’re doing this
2 in a knowing and voluntary manner to represent yourself, but I
3 have to warn you, as intelligent as you are, and you’re obviously
4 a very smart man, and you’re able to read American law books and
5 glean from some of the rulings, but I have to tell you that the
6 American legal system is complicated. An ordinary person or even
7 a very bright ordinary person who walks into court and tries to
8 defend himself — and I’ve had many other cases, including
9 capital cases, with defendants who have acted pro se.
10 You will have to follow the rules of law and procedure
11 of this Court. You said, for example, that in your culture, you
12 have to ask a question three times, and if the answer is the same
13 three times, it flies. Well, in this Court, you get to ask it
15 THE DEFENDANT: (Arabic spoken.)
16 THE COURT: Just as an example of the cultural
17 difference, you are in a United States court.
18 Now if you can conduct yourself in accordance with the
19 rules and procedure of this Court, then assuming I have found
20 that this is a knowing and voluntary waiver under a right to be
21 represented by counsel, you can proceed pro se. That is your
23 But the right is forfeited if you don’t follow the
24 rules. And the rules are complicated. And so the normal
25 practice — and apparently Mr. Dunham explained that to you — is
1 that even when a person goes pro se, especially in a capital
2 case, the Court will continue to have as standby counsel
3 experienced lawyers who are there to help you if at some point
4 you realize you’re in over your head.
5 And I am not going to therefore excuse these attorneys
6 who already have invested a great deal of time and effort, who
7 have retained people to work on your behalf, from this case
9 Now it’s your decision. If you don’t want to talk to
10 them, you proceed at your own risk. But I am not going to permit
11 you to be in a court of law without any legal resources
13 Now, if you’re able to hire an attorney for yourself,
14 that could change the dynamic. And you have that right. And I’m
15 sure that these attorneys would help you —
16 THE DEFENDANT: No.
17 THE COURT: — in doing that.
18 That’s your decision. But I’m not going to grant your
19 motion quite yet to go pro se until I’ve had an expert in
20 psychiatry talk with you just for this record.
21 I will say that from what I’ve seen in court today, you
22 appear to know and understand what you’re doing. As I said, you
23 are very bright. You do come from a different cultural
24 background and tradition, and you need to be careful to
25 understand that in this court, you’ve got to follow these rules.
1 And if you start citing to authorities or practices
2 that are not in conformance with what happens in an American
3 court, you will be stopped. All right?
4 I’ll try to arrange for the visit as soon as possible.
5 And at this point, therefore, unless the doctor comes up with
6 something, I will find on this record that this is a knowing and
7 intelligent waiver of counsel, but I am not releasing counsel
8 from this case, because it would be impossible for this man to,
9 in my view, defend himself at this point without some legal
11 Now, you are going to be getting access through the
12 Alexandria Jail, which has gone through extraordinary efforts to
13 try to accommodate you, to have a second room available for you
14 where you will have a computer, you will have access to the
15 CD-ROMs under certain controls and within the security needs of
16 the jail. Very few, if any, prisoners have ever had that kind of
18 You will be able to mount a defense. And if you are
19 wise, you will use what resources — you can pick and choose what
20 you want to use from these attorneys, but if you choose to do
21 nothing with them, that’s also your choice. But they’re going to
22 be sitting in this courtroom throughout the trial proceedings
23 just in case, unless you have a different attorney who has been
25 You don’t have a right to pick and choose a
1 court-appointed attorney.
2 THE DEFENDANT: First of all —
3 THE COURT: Well, now, I’ve ruled. When I rule, that’s
4 it. If you disagree with my ruling, when the case is over, you
5 take an appeal to the Fourth Circuit. That’s how the trial will
6 be conducted, too.
7 When I make a ruling, it’s no different for you than
8 any other attorney. If the government disagrees with what I’ve
9 said, they know they have to live with it through the course of
10 the proceeding. And then down the road, there’s a chance to have
11 that reviewed.
12 You may have a seat now, Mr. Moussaoui.
13 In terms then of the defendant’s motion for relief from
14 conditions of confinement, that motion is denied as moot in my
15 view, as to all conditions complained about except the John Doe,
16 and it’s denied as to that. As I said, the John Doe situation is
17 completely remedial as long as the individual wants to be vetted.
18 Now there are a couple of other what I will call
19 administrative matters that we need to get addressed and even
20 with the potential change of counsel’s situation is going to have
21 to be addressed.
22 First is the juror questionnaire. I assume, counsel,
23 you’ve been working on that. I know the government, and I don’t
24 know whether the defense got a copy of a questionnaire we used in
25 the Wills case. I’m going to set Friday, May 31st, as the
1 deadline for proposed juror questionnaire from each side.
2 I’m going to direct that you submit the questionnaire
3 to the Court on CD-ROM — on a disk, rather, so that we can take
4 a look at it.
5 I would expect that the Court will go through both
6 proposed questionnaires, and we will determine the final
7 questions that are going to go on it. But that needs to be done
8 in — sufficiently in advance of the pulling together of the
10 So that everyone can have it on their calendars, we are
11 proposing to have the jury pool brought in on Tuesday, September
12 17. As I indicated previously, the jurors will fill out the
13 questionnaire under court supervision at one time. That’s the
14 best way of getting 100 percent return.
15 And then the plan is that you will be getting copies.
16 We are going to use a, obviously, an anonymous jury, but you will
17 be getting copies of all the questionnaires and have
18 approximately four or five days to go over the questions. We’re
19 going to do what I did in my last case, which is basically a desk
20 audit of the questionnaires; that is, the first review of
21 proposed jurors will be conducted by going over the
23 Each side will be allowed to indicate which jurors they
24 want stricken and for what reasons. My experience is that a
25 certain percentage of the proposed jurors both sides will agree
1 that they want stricken. And, therefore, I will strike them
2 without ever going beyond that.
3 There may be others where one side or the other is
4 pointing to a particular answer that they feel makes that juror
5 unqualified. And I may determine that that’s sufficient on
6 simply the responses or go ahead and let that juror come in for
7 personal voir dire. It depends on the particular questions.
8 That worked very well in the Wills case, and that’s what I intend
9 to do, something along those lines, here.
10 And then, as we indicated before, the actual voir dire
11 will begin in late September on the date that we previously had
12 given to you-all. That’s the proposed plan right now.
13 The other issues are that I want to make sure both
14 sides know that if either side files a pleading ex parte under
15 seal, the Court is not going to require a separate sealing order.
16 That caption is sufficient in my view to permit that matter to be
17 filed under seal ex parte.
18 I review every filing, and if I determine that there
19 really is no reason why it should not be part of the public
20 record, I’ll let you know. But that will shorten the number of
21 orders that you have to submit to the Court.
22 There was an issue raised informally by defense counsel
23 about civilian clothing for Mr. Moussaoui. The U.S. Marshal’s
24 Service will not be providing civilian clothing for Mr. Moussaoui
25 to attend to simply motions hearings of this sort. Obviously,
1 for the trial, he will have the right to be in civilian clothing.
2 That can be taken care of at the trial time, but not before then.
3 Now, are there any other issues, Mr. Spencer, first of
4 all, from the United States, that you want the Court to address
5 since we’re together at this time?
6 MR. SPENCER: I just had some practical considerations
7 for any evaluation, competency evaluation the Court is going to
9 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
10 MR. SPENCER: First of all, I take it that the expert
11 is going to be court-appointed?
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 MR. SPENCER: And a copy of any report generated will
14 be provided to the government?
15 THE COURT: That’s the normal practice, although,
16 again, the only issue here is going to be competency to make this
17 decision about waiving counsel. That’s what I ruled.
18 MR. SPENCER: Your Honor, I see this as just a strict
19 Butner competency evaluation without the transportation and the
20 time down to Butner.
21 THE COURT: I would agree with that.
22 MR. SPENCER: All right. And then — so I’m presuming,
23 Your Honor, that the effect on the motions schedule, particularly
24 the death penalty motions coming up, the filing May 1st, it will
25 have no effect on that.
1 THE COURT: That is correct. I’m holding the motion in
2 abeyance. I’m ruling on that in abeyance until I’ve made a
3 determination for certain that the defendant is not making the
4 decision under any kind of mental duress or mental infirmity that
5 might cloud it for purposes of voluntariness.
6 MR. SPENCER: Finally, Your Honor, just for purposes of
7 the record, we move that these counsel be retained as standby
8 counsel if the defendant chooses to go pro se. I take it that’s
9 the Court’s ruling on that?
10 THE COURT: That’s been our practice. I mean, again,
11 given the experience of these attorneys, even though
12 Mr. Moussaoui doesn’t appreciate it, he has a, he has an
13 extremely experienced set of attorneys working for him.
14 As I said, they’ve retained experts already in various
15 areas, and the only way he could even begin to have a fair
16 defense is to have access to those resources. If he chooses not
17 to do so, that’s his decision, but the Court’s obligation is to
18 make them available for him, and that’s what we’re going to do.
19 So you can just make it as an oral motion. I’m
20 granting that at this point.
21 Again, that may change. As I said, if he retains
22 counsel, that changes things.
23 MR. SPENCER: I understand, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: That hasn’t happened at this point.
25 All right. Is there anything else?
1 MR. SPENCER: No, thank you, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: All right. Just one last thing. It hasn’t
3 happened yet and I don’t know what the status is going to be. I
4 understand that the House of Representatives is, is on the verge
5 perhaps of passing its version of Senator Allen’s bill. Is your
6 office going to take responsibility for coordinating the offsite
7 viewings with the victims and that sort of thing? I see
8 Ms. Spinks is here today.
9 Is your victims unit going to be in charge of that or
10 do you expect that’s going to be out of Main Justice?
11 MR. SPENCER: I expect that to be out of Main Justice,
12 but I don’t actually know the answer to that question.
13 THE COURT: All right. That’s another logistical issue
14 we’re going to be needing to address, I suspect, in the next
15 couple weeks. That’s not quite ripe yet, but it’s out there.
16 All right. Is there anything else?
17 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, may I consult with
18 Mr. Dunham one second? There’s one additional matter.
19 THE COURT: Just one second, Mr. Moussaoui.
20 MR. MAC MAHON: Just one second, Your Honor, excuse me.
21 MR. DUNHAM: Your Honor, I do need to bring a couple of
22 things to the Court’s attention in dealing with the Faretta
24 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
25 MR. DUNHAM: There are CIPA issues in the case, and
1 Mr. Moussaoui probably will not be granted a clearance.
2 THE COURT: Which is another reason, I should put that
3 on the record, why having standby counsel who are cleared to
4 receive that type of information is going to be important.
5 While I’ve got you both here, it will help the Court
6 and will move things faster if counsel can send us some names of
7 psychiatrists you’ve used recently in this area for these types
8 of forensic evaluations, because I want to get this done as
9 quickly as possible.
10 MR. DUNHAM: Your Honor, I also would suggest that the
11 psychiatrist needs to be given a briefing, I believe, by counsel
12 as to the issues in the case, because — and the complexity
13 involved, because the determination of competency has something
14 to do with the competency to handle this case. And, you know,
15 it’s a little more complicated than perhaps the Wills case was,
16 and I do think that that — the psychiatrist needs to look at it
17 against that framework.
18 And so I would suggest that we’ll submit some names and
19 maybe we can give them some observations that we have before they
20 conduct the examination.
21 THE COURT: Here’s what I suggest. The fastest and
22 best way of doing this is for you and Mr. Spencer with the
23 government team and the defense team to get together, draft, if
24 you can for us, an order with the guidelines that you want, if
25 you can come to an agreement on that.
1 As I said, I’m not granting the defendant’s motion yet,
2 so you’re still, until I’ve granted it, the attorneys
3 representing him. We want to get this matter resolved quickly,
4 all right?
5 MR. DUNHAM: So that brings up another question. Your
6 Honor had addressed the jury questionnaire due on May 31, as if
7 we were the ones that were responsible for filing it. And what
8 I’m going to assume is that until we receive an order granting
9 Mr. Moussaoui’s motion, we will continue to do the things on the
10 deadlines that the Court has set.
11 THE COURT: That’s correct.
12 MR. DUNHAM: But once that motion is granted, I would
13 assume that we are relieved from doing those things, such as
14 filing motions in the case and filing jury questionnaires, if you
15 decide that before May 31st, and that it will be Mr. Moussaoui’s
16 obligation to fulfill those requirements.
17 THE COURT: You’ll be required to turn over to him any
18 drafts that you’ve worked on. And I’m still going to require if
19 you stay in, if you wind up becoming standby counsel, I’m still
20 going to require that you make efforts to communicate with the
21 defendant about some of these deadlines and what he has to do.
22 He can choose to reject it and then proceeds at his own
23 risk, but yes, we’ll proceed that way.
24 MR. DUNHAM: All right. And then I guess the last
25 thing that I wanted to mention was, Your Honor, on this — oh,
1 you said work out the details with Mr. Spencer. We’ll try to do
3 THE COURT: Right.
4 MR. DUNHAM: We are concerned about just having the raw
5 report go to the government in the event there is material in
6 there that should remain privileged until trial. So we’ll work
7 that out with the government.
8 THE COURT: One way of doing it is having it submitted
9 to the Court for an ex parte review. If I find that parts of the
10 report have to be redacted to make sure there’s no issue, we can
11 do that.
12 MR. DUNHAM: Thank you, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Is there anything further?
14 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
15 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Moussaoui, I’ll let you have
16 the last word. Go ahead.
17 Don’t say anything yet. We have to change paper.
18 Go ahead, sir.
19 THE DEFENDANT: Concerning the so-called test of
20 competency, I have to say that, according to my information, it
21 is to assure such a presentation so that the record will
22 establish that he knows, the defendant, what he’s doing and the
23 choice he’s making with eye open. And his technical and legal
24 knowledge as such is not relevant, okay?
25 So my ability to try the case is not really what is in
1 question in the competency, competency information. Because we
2 have in this case very, very different approach. And it’s
3 impossible to have two teams trying the same case, because they,
4 for example, okay, they want to try by jury. And me, I want to
5 try by a judge. Because of all of information and the complexity
6 of the case make it, make it very, very difficult for a simple
7 person to comprehend in a very short time, and a judge —
8 THE COURT: Let me stop you. You want to waive a trial
9 by jury?
10 THE DEFENDANT: Yes. Okay? And I’ve been thinking of
11 this since the beginning, because the complexity of the case make
12 it that very — you have to collate information and be able to
13 understand concepts very quickly, and this is not very easy for a
14 simple person. And the only person who can grasp this kind of
15 thing is maybe a judge, okay?
16 So I was thinking for long time, because I was reading
17 the transcript of embassy bombing and everything, everything is
18 in my cell, and I discovered that the government just overwhelmed
19 the Court of information and the people just naturally lose track
20 of what has been said. And at the end, they just are lost, and
21 it’s just a question of feeling you become, okay?
22 But the judge can see through the trick of the
23 government and will be able to assess the validity of the
24 argument. And also you will have documents to be able to see, to
25 see this contradiction during the first day to the tenth day,
1 because inside the transcript I show to them contradiction during
2 the trial.
3 THE COURT: All right. Now, Mr. Moussaoui, stop for
4 just one second.
5 Each side in a criminal case has a right to trial by
6 jury. You can’t waive the jury on your own. The United States
7 would have to agree with that. That’s something down the road
8 that both sides may want to think about, whether it’s even
9 possible in a capital case; we haven’t looked at yet.
10 Mr. Zerkin, do you know from your experience?
11 MR. ZERKIN: It is indeed possible.
12 THE COURT: In a federal capital case?
13 MR. ZERKIN: Yes, ma’am, a jury can be waived.
14 THE COURT: For both phases?
15 MR. ZERKIN: For both phases, that’s correct.
16 THE COURT: Well, that’s something that can be
17 discussed and thought about down the road. Obviously, it would
18 change the dynamics of much of this trial.
19 But that is such a serious decision, Mr. Moussaoui, I’m
20 not going to at this point accept this. You need to think about
21 that very carefully. And, again, that’s an issue that has
22 nothing to do with the things that you’re disputing with your
23 attorneys. You should talk to them about that.
24 But — wait. But even if you have come to the decision
25 that you want to waive the jury, the United States, if they want
1 a trial by jury, has an absolute right to require — to request
2 that. And the Court can waive a jury only if both sides agree,
3 all right? So that’s what you need to understand.
4 THE DEFENDANT: I understand your point. The second
5 thing concerning the appointment standby counsel. The standby
6 counsel’s role is exactly to inform, okay, to inform the
7 defendant pro se on procedure, to relieve the judge of the need
8 to explain the way the Court works, but here what is happening,
9 what you’re doing is having them — appointing them as my lawyer
10 and going — making investigation on their own, okay, and this
11 will interfere tremendously.
12 I have a very quick example, okay? I know already that
13 they want to develop a line of argument —
14 THE COURT: Well, I don’t really think you should do
16 THE DEFENDANT: This is my defense. I have long time,
17 four months to evaluate this kind of thing, okay? So they want
18 to talk to Mr. Attas, okay? They want to make him pass like he
19 have been cooperating in fact with the government. And all these
20 statements are not correct. And I have been opposing this,
21 because if this person is a truthful person, even if his
22 statements are harmful in a sense for me, I was not inclined to
23 demonize or to vilify or whatever somebody just because it suits
24 me, but they have a completely different set of principles.
25 For them, it was to approach Attas to make him believe
1 that he will be a friendly witness and then to turn against him,
2 okay? And then saying that, in fact, because you have similar
3 profile with Mr. Moussaoui, you are from the Middle East and you
4 are also, of course, an Arab and you also are kind of
5 fundamentalist, okay, you find your way out of the case by giving
6 information to the government. And I oppose this. This is only
7 an example.
8 So it is impossible in practice to have them going
9 freely all over the world and trying to meet people that I know
10 and they have — and trying to do things that I’m against. And I
11 know that can damage my own preparation.
12 THE COURT: All right. That can be —
13 THE DEFENDANT: And I can, I can hire my lawyer to only
14 help me in the procedure.
15 What you are proposing, that them, after four months,
16 you tell me try to work with them. I’ve been trying for four
17 months, okay? And now you say carry on. Me, what I want is the
18 ability to hire counsel that will inform me on the matter of
19 procedure, okay. You will tell me how to come and draft a motion
20 properly according to United States law and you tell me how to
21 even, let’s say, adjust my presentation to the requisites of
22 United States law.
23 And, by the way, I’m born in France, educated — I have
24 a master’s degree in international business. I’m fully
25 acquainted with western system of justice, okay? I never live in
1 the Middle East country or in Arabic country, okay? So I think
2 that the conception that I’m completely ignorant of the rule of
3 western system of justice and Anglo-Saxon, because I live in
4 London, okay, it’s not correct. I’m fully aware, okay, of the
5 western system of justice and so on.
6 So what you were proposing, in fact, is impractical,
7 and you will damage my defense and ultimately my chance to live.
8 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Moussaoui.
9 THE DEFENDANT: And I want to have immediately the
10 right to make an appeal and the information to address this
11 right, because it’s only to return to the cell and wait two
12 months so I lose any credibility again, okay? Then you cannot
13 work like that.
14 I want to be able to choose a lawyer, to contact this
15 Muslim association. This lawyer will be vetted, vetted by CIA,
16 FBI, whatever you want, and then he will access me and tell me
17 how to proceed.
18 But these people, I want the record to be clear I will
19 not receive them, speak to them from today, ever. And the record
20 is here to attest it. I want the right to hire my own lawyer.
21 And I know that the Muslim lawyer, knowing my situation, will
22 work free for me until I am released.
23 So the fact that I don’t have money, it is not at all
24 an issue, because I know that prevented me to open a bank account
25 in a Muslim bank because I wanted them, that the people, they
1 will know that I need help and some money will be sent to me.
2 They said no, because the government will capture your
3 money. But the government, they didn’t capture my money within
4 some bank. Only if it’s in the Muslim bank the government will
5 capture it. But when the government sees that the money is put
6 by them, it’s okay, I have money in the bank, despite that’s
7 apparently forbidden.
8 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Moussaoui, what we’re going
9 to do, as I said, we’re going to have a psychiatrist checking you
10 over in the cell. And I’ll make my final decision about whether
11 I’m permitting you to proceed pro se based upon that report.
12 Thank you.
13 All right. We’ll remand — oh, Mr. Moussaoui, we want
14 a copy of the document that you read to the Court. If that’s
15 your only copy, we’ll make a photocopy and it will be returned to
17 THE DEFENDANT: Okay.
18 THE COURT: Do you have it there? You can give it to
19 the marshal.
20 THE DEFENDANT: Yes. You want it now?
21 THE COURT: Actually go on into the cellblock and we’ll
22 go ahead and get it from you there. All right?
23 The marshals may take Mr. Moussaoui back to the
25 (Defendant out).
1 THE COURT: All right, we’ll recess court.
2 (Which were all the proceedings had
3 at this time.)
6 CERTIFICATE OF THE REPORTER
7 I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript of the
8 record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.
Anneliese J. Thomson